Announcer: Would you like an opinion on a financial matter you're dealing with? Whether it's about retirement, investments, taxes, or 401(k)s, Scott Hanson and Pat McClain would like to help you by answering your call. To join Allworth's "Money Matters," call now at 833-99-WORTH. That's 833-99-WORTH.

Scott: Welcome to Allworth's "Money Matters." I'm Scott Hanson.

Pat: And Pat McClain. Thanks for joining us.

Scott: Right. Glad you are taking some time out of your day to listen to us. We're both financial advisors and enjoy doing our podcast here and radio program to help you with your finances. And we've talked about this in the past. And we'll take some calls here as we get going. But before we do that, commercial property. So, there's certain assets. The thing about, like, publicly-traded assets like stocks, bonds of large companies, things that are publicly traded where there's an ongoing market...

Pat: You know the value.

Scott: ...you know the value on a daily basis. So, if something happens in a company, the company is no longer, the future earnings don't look as bright as they once had, people know it immediately and the value of that stock drops.

Pat: Well, mostly.

Scott: Fair.

Pat: Because there's meme stocks and stocks like MoviePass that are hyped to... No one really knows the value. Just people hyping things up.

Scott: That's true. Fair enough. Over the long term, though, it all washes out.

Pat: That's right. And oftentimes money washes away with those meme stocks.

Scott: That's right. With non-traded assets, things like commercial property, and we can also say the same things that maybe some private equity, that sort of stuff. But let's just focus on commercial property for a moment. Commercial property, you look at the downtowns of companies, those high rises, or any office building, if they're small, they might be owned by a family or a few families come together and buy them. If they're medium size or larger, odds are they're owned by a pension plan, an insurance company, a bank...

Pat: Real estate investment trust.

Scott: ...a REIT. Yeah. And a value...

Pat: A government of...

Scott: Yep.

Pat: Not only a U.S. government, but oftentimes foreign governments will own commercial properties.

Scott: And unlike a mortgage on a house, when you buy a house, you can get a 30-year mortgage with a fixed rate for 30 years. Most commercial properties, you get a fixed rate for...

Pat: Five.

Scott: ...three years, five years, seven years. Not in these 20, 30 years.

Pat: They sunset.

Scott: Yeah. Well, a lot of these loans...

Pat: They call them coming due.

Scott: ...have come due. And some of the creditors have kind of extend and pretend, as they say in the lending business.

Pat: Kick the can.

Scott: Yeah. And they can only kick the can for so long till suddenly something...

Pat: You're like, "We're gonna have to have a meeting." So, when they extend and pretend, they just go back to the borrower and say, "Hey, how's it going?" And by the way, if you own one of these properties, you have to report to the lender. Most lenders require at least once a year, all your financials, what your vacancies look like.

Scott: It's not like when you buy a house, right, you get the mortgage and then you're done. The mortgage company doesn't say, "Hey, is your income still there? Hey, any damages at your house? Have you done any upgrade?"

Pat: And they have the ability to call a loan if it goes into a certain occupancy drops to less than 60% or revenue drops to X, right?

Scott: Or loan to value, the property value falls.

Pat: Or LTV. Yes.

Scott: And they're like, "Well, you need to throw in some more cash into this deal because you pay down the loan."

Pat: It's called a capital call on a commercial real estate.

Scott: Pay down the loan.

Pat: Yes. In order to keep you in qualification. So, we're seeing it.

Scott: It's a slow melt, but...

Pat: And quite frankly, you read about this. I've listened to podcasts about converting these commercial office buildings into residential. Oftentimes the problem is there are actually footprints and the codes don't go along. So, the code in many cities is any room that is occupied or slept in needs to actually have a window, right? Well, if you're in an office building, it means that every bedroom zone can only be 8 feet wide and 50 feet long with a window on the end, right? It doesn't convert. And then the plumbing and the electrical behind it, most certainly the plumbing, the electrical is much easier to deal with, but replumbing...

Scott: And then there's no balcony and most of the windows don't open.

Pat: That's right. It goes on and on and on. Yeah. So, oftentimes it's actually easier to actually build a new building than to rehab.

Scott: I mean, some of these commercial properties are down. The buildings are down 60%, 70%, 80%.

Pat: And we've started to see it in some of these REITs. Well, the first thing they do is they stop the distributions or redemptions. So, they're like, first thing they do is like no more incomes going out to any of the shareholders that invested in the real estate investment trust. Then the second thing is, "Oh, by the way, you're not allowed to redeem your shares, which means you can't sell them back to us." Right? That's the non-traded REIT versus a REIT that's traded. A REIT that's traded, you can sell to someone else, which is, if you've listened to the show at all, you know how we feel about non-traded REITs.

Scott: We're not big fans.

Pat: Yes. That'd be an understatement.

Scott: I had lunch this week with a...it's a private fund of sorts that's commercial credit, that's what they do, right? It's loans to different buildings and... Where was I going with this one? I might have just lost my train of thought.

Pat: Do they do real estate or businesses?

Scott: Both, but primarily real estate. And I don't even remember what I was gonna say.

Pat: Okay. Well, that's interesting. I'm glad. What'd you have for lunch? Come on, Scott. Let's try to keep it together. We only have to do this for an hour a week. One hour a week, we need to get in front of these microphones and talk. How far into the show are we? Seven minutes? Eight minutes?

Scott: I lost my train of thought and I don't remember... Obviously, it wasn't that important.

Pat: Okay. Well, let's just try to keep it together for the rest of the program.

Scott: But I do wonder what kind of spillover... Are we gonna see any spillover into the broad economy with this?

Pat: Why don't we ask China?

Scott: Oh, my gosh.

Pat: Right? But fortunately, the U.S. economy is...

Scott: That's a very different situation.

Pat: That's right.

Scott: I mean, what happened with China, if you were in China as a worker and you wanted to invest in something...

Pat: It was real estate.

Scott: ...it was a high-rise condo, apartment, whatever, right? That's what everyone was invested in. And these companies were building new cities. People were buying these, site unseen with no plans to live in them, just plans to flip it and sell to the high...

Pat: Yeah. At some point in time.

Scott: Yes.

Pat: Yeah. And big old...

Scott: That was...

Pat: Like a big pyramid. But back to the real estate, Scott. So, we've got forces that are actually happening in the United States that I don't think anyone would have predicted. Retail is being displaced by online delivery. And not just Amazon, by the way. Retailers are doing it to themselves. Target is making themselves obsolete. Walmart is trying to make themselves obsolete, right? They're going to... They see where Amazon's gone, and they're like, "We have to be there," right? And then the other thing is that this work from home it's here to stay. It is here to stay. And you say, "Well, is it really?" Yes, it is. There is a, my guess is probably, 10 to...

Scott: Not full-time work from home.

Pat: But there's a lot of jobs that are gonna be full-time work from home, right, that used to be done in an office, right?

Scott: Yeah. A lot of people are still working from home.

Pat: Right. And then...

Scott: But for most people, they'll come in sometime.

Pat: They'll come in sometime. So, what it does is it moves the footprint of the building from, you know, 10,000 square feet to 7,000 square feet or 6,000 square feet just by utilization of that space.

Scott: That's exactly right. It's an interesting...

Pat: Which is, look, again and again and again, the best portfolio is a diversified portfolio.

Scott: Highly diversified.

Pat: Right?

Scott: Right.

Pat: Because I know real estate guys and they live and die by real estate. They're like, "Why would you invest in anything else but real estate?" I'm like, "Well, there's lots of reasons." Right? Because every investment, every asset class has its day in the sun and a day in the rain. And you don't know when that's gonna come. And the idea for you as an investor is to live through all those cycles. So, again, if you look at your portfolio, you should be unhappy with about a third of your holdings at any point in time.

Scott: Sometimes everything's up, but usually not.

Pat: That's right.

Scott: And when it is, it's very short term.

Pat: Yeah. And so if you're unhappy with a third of the portfolio, the natural tendency is let's get rid of the things that are doing poorly. Odds are those things that are doing poorly...

Scott: If they were well researched to begin with and are in your portfolio for a reason.

Pat: Got it. Got it. As I apt to do, watched a documentary. I love documentaries and historical books and business. A great documentary that just came out was called "MoviePass." It was about...

Scott: On the MoviePass thing? What happened to that? They went bankrupt?

Pat: Oh, they never made a dime, but...

Scott: I didn't know how they were gonna make a dime. Was it you pay 20 bucks a month and you get unlimited movies?

Pat: And they were buying at $9.95 and you could go see as many movies as you wanted.

Scott: For 10 bucks.

Pat: For $10 a month. And they were buying retail. They sent out debit cards.

Scott: What was the business model behind it?

Pat: They were gonna get to scale.

Scott: And then what?

Pat: Well, that was the problem. No one really... Then they were gonna sell data to movie studios. I'm thinking, "Well, the people that would go to a movie for $10 a month as many as they wanted," and I thought it was hysterical, Scott. This one guy says, "Look, because I'm kind of a busy guy, so I'd actually go to the theater on Monday and watch the first half of the movie, and then I'd come back on Tuesday and watch the second half of the movie at the movie theater." I'm like, "Oh."

Scott: That's a little weird.

Pat: Yeah. But if it's free to get in. Anyway, worth a watch. And the reason it's worth a watch is that stock went crazy. And the hype around it at the beginning was unbelievable until the analysts started questioning the business model like, "How are you going to make money?"

Scott: And as an investor, if you want to have a small portion of your portfolio to trade in certain things or take a chance on something, fine.

Pat: Have at it.

Scott: But understand what it is. It's suspecting a piece of your portfolio, and it should be money that you can afford to lose. You certainly don't wanna be looking at your life savings and betting it on... Or what happens oftentimes is people are a little behind where they need to be and they think they need to catch up. "I need to get a high return so I've got enough money for my retirement." Then they...

Pat: They blow themselves up completely.

Scott: Something like that. MoviePass. I can't wait to watch the movie on MoviePass.

Pat: MoviePass.

Scott: Anyway, let's go to some calls. To join us, we always love taking callers, you can send us an email, questions@moneymatters.com. Let us know what your question is about. We can schedule a time to take your call. Again, questions@moneymatters.com. Or our number is 833-99-WORTH. We're talking with Willie. Willie, you're with All Worth's "Money Matters."

Willie: Hi. Thanks for having me on.

Scott: Yeah. Glad you joined us.

Willie: Thanks. So, my wife and I are 60 years old, and we decided to retire early a few years ago. Financially, we're in good shape. We have no debt and our four children are no longer officially dependents.

Scott: As my dad used to call them, self-feeders.

Willie: Yeah. So, now we're just trying to optimize our financial accounts. And here's what we're doing. I'm maxing out my HSA contributions each year. My wife has Parkinson's, so we'll probably end up using most of this. And then I think we can also use that since it's...

Scott: Aren't you retired?

Pat: So, are you on a retiree medical? How are you retired and still receiving medical insurance?

Willie: I'm getting it through the Obamacare.

Pat: Okay. Got it.

Willie: Yeah. And so that's kind of one of my bigger questions, but I thought I'd just give you a little bit of background on some of the other accounts first here. So, I think I can use my HSA contribution to pay Medicare premiums in the future. I'm not eligible for them now. But...

Pat: I don't know the answer to that.

Scott: I don't know the answer to that either.

Willie: Yeah. I think I read that, but I'm not 100% sure. It's a few years away, so I'm not...

Scott: Okay. I mean, my view would be that it's... And I maximize my HSA every year, and I don't spend it, and it's invested. My plan is to... It's all those other expenses. Medicare is relatively small.

Pat: Okay. So keep going.

Willie: All right. And so we have a joint account, which I highly doubt we'll end up using most of this. So, I have a large portion of that, 45% of that account is in long-term capital gains right now. So, basically, you know, we think we'll be able to hold off till we get the step-up basis when my spouse or me or both of us die getting some portion of the step-up basis for it.

Pat: Are these individual stocks?

Willie: Yeah. It's mostly in an ETF.

Pat: Okay.

Scott: Okay. Okay.

Pat: That's different. Okay. All right. The reason I ask that, like, if you said, "No, there's five different stocks," I'd probably say, "You need to do some..." I mean, sometimes it makes sense to sell and pay the tax rather than hold an investment that's not a great investment, just because you're trying to defer the tax.

Scott: But these are ETFs, right?

Willie: Yeah. And it's been a great investment. And I don't think we'll end up using it. I also have about 15% of that account is in an MLP, which defers taxes on it anyway. Then I have a relatively small beneficiary IRA where we donate about 15% of that to securities each year, but the rest of that is basically my earned...or not earned income, but income for the year. Then I have a Roth IRA, which I recommend Roth IRAs to everyone. And we just basically have that set aside for if we end up buying a large retirement home somewhere or anytime we move...

Scott: So, how much is in your joint account?

Willie: The joint account is about $2.4 million.

Scott: And how much is in your Roth?

Willie: $1.9 million.

Scott: Wow. And do you have a regular IRA, a 401(k) as well?

Willie: Yeah. So, I have a traditional IRA, and that's about $1.5 million.

Pat: Okay. And what's your question for us?

Willie: Well, so I'm trying to optimize, make sure I'm doing things right. So, with the Obamacare that I have, I'm basically getting...

Scott: We had a call just like this last week, Pat.

Pat: I know.

Scott: Go ahead. Sorry.

Willie: I'm getting about a $20,000 premium tax credits and cost-sharing reduction subsidies every year.

Pat: For the rest of the listeners, the technical name is the Affordable Care Act, but goes oftentimes by the name Obamacare.

Willie: Yeah, right. But I have got pretty low income right now. Really my only income is my joint account, the interest dividend.

Pat: Yeah. And the inherited IRA.

Willie: The beneficiary IRA. I keep it pretty much under $50,000, which puts me...

Pat: Yeah, as long as you don't exceed what is 138% of the poverty. So, what's your question for us?

Willie: Well, I mean, am I right in not trying to convert any...

Pat: That's right.

Willie: ...more traditional IRA into Roth?

Pat: That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. Do not...

Willie: And then...

Pat: Yeah. Stay on that ACA as long as you can.

Scott: It's $20,000 in free money.

Pat: Yes, correct. And by the way, you know, we had a caller like this last week. You have between the ages of 65 and 75 to convert as much as you want from IRA to Roth IRA based upon your needs. So, you wanna stay exactly where you're at today. You're doing it right. Perfect.

Willie: Okay. And then I don't know enough about the Medicare premiums, but that's also based on your income. So, if I would convert then, I would have a higher premium to pay?

Pat: Yeah. But I'm not gonna...

Scott: I don't think you're gonna be at that income level to where you're gonna pay a Medicare surtax.

Pat: Yeah. And by the way, I'm not gonna discuss the Medicare surtax five years from now. Just not gonna do it. In fact, listen, if there's more people like you taking advantage of the Affordable Care Act, right, because we do it all the time with our clients. Your worth, right, on paper here, what you just showed us with your assets, it's almost $7 million. My guess is there's $2 million laying around in other stuff that we don't know about. There's no way in the world that you should be qualifying for the Affordable Care Act.

Scott: I know, but that's how they structure them.

Pat: I understand, Scott, but the reality is, is that loophole will close.

Willie: Right.

Scott: Oh, eventually, yeah.

Willie: Well, I'm gonna take advantage of it.

Pat: No, I understand. As you should. As you should.

Scott: But I would not... So, let's assume you're 65 today. The Medicare surtax, it hits you at about, what, $180,000 or something like that.

Pat: You're probably below that.

Scott: Yeah. Even if you start doing conversions, and then you just run the numbers, and that's five years out, you just run the numbers and say, "Okay. If I convert X dollars, what's it gonna mean as far as my taxes? Will this push me into Medicare surtax? How much is that? And then does it make it worse?"

Pat: I'm not even gonna discuss it. Five years from now, the Medicare surtax, I have no idea what it's gonna look like. I'm not gonna borrow trouble. Today, you're doing the right thing. Continue on. Any other...

Scott: Well, you don't have that attitude in other areas of the tax law.

Pat: The Medicare surtax is the percentage of this guy. What is it? Right? I'm gonna pick up pennies and ignore dollars for the Medicare surtax.

Scott: Yes. Which means some people pay 100 bucks roughly a month for Medicare. Some people pay 500 bucks a month.

Pat: That's right. That's right.

Scott: Which means tested.

Pat: But I said this to a client. He said, "Well, I'm tired of paying this Medicare surtax." I said, "I can lower your income. Do you wanna live on less?" He said, "No." I said, "Okay. Well, then pay the Medicare surtax. What do you want? You can't have both." If you wanna... If you're this net worth and you wanna continue traveling first class, then we're gonna have to distribute income to you and you're gonna have to pay the Medicare surtax. Or, alternatively, I could lower your income. You can't travel at all, but you won't have to pay the Medicare surtax.

Scott: You tell me what you want.

Pat: What do you want? And they said...

Scott: This is a conversation you had with somebody just like that?

Pat: Yes. Yes, just exactly like that. And they said, "You know, Pat, we're good paying the Medicare surtax." So, this is exactly, Willie, let's not forget the objective of the dollars, right? The objective of the dollars is not to avoid all taxes at all costs.

Scott: That's right.

Pat: The objective of the dollars is to actually support a lifestyle in which you can afford and can live indefinitely. That's why we're not gonna discuss the Medicare surtax. Do you have any other questions for us before we leave here?

Willie: Well, so kind of a side question. So, because my premium is so low with that, I think I can keep my daughter who's 22 on it until she's 25. I'm not exactly sure of that, but I don't know if that's something that's...

Pat: Listen, we do it...

Willie: It sounds like the smart thing to do.

Pat: I do it with my own children who...

Scott: And they're on their plan until you're 26.

Pat: To keep them on my work plan as long as we possibly can unless they have insurance through somewhere else that's less expensive.

Scott: Yeah. You just gotta...

Willie: Right.

Pat: You just gotta make several of the plan [inaudible 00:22:17.482].

Scott: But if she went on ACA, it might be six bucks a month.

Pat: It might even be better.

Scott: It might even be better. I don't know. So, you'd have to...

Pat: Take a look at that.

Scott: Take a look at that.

Pat: Appreciate the call.

Scott: Appreciate the mention twice. And last week there was someone who's also had several million dollars.

Pat: About the same age.

Scott: Right. That was on...

Pat: But my point, look, at some point...

Scott: Look, we have people coming to us, they say, "I'm 61 years old. I wanna retire. What are my options?" That's one of them. And we say, "Here's how you can get your... There's a way to get your income down."

Pat: But this isn't gonna stay this way forever." Just flat out. Right? It's, like, I sat with these clients the other day and I said, "Look, this is why we're doing this for the step-up basis." And I said, "Oh, by the way, it might be in the next 3, 5, 10 years that I come back and I give you a completely different set of rules because the..."

Scott: Yeah. There's a good chance for that particularly.

Pat: Oh, makes no sense.

Scott: The step-up basis at death make no sense.

Pat: Makes no sense.

Scott: Yeah. It would be an easy one for Congress to shut through there.

Pat: Yeah. And generate quite a bit of tax off that. And dead people very rarely complain.

Scott: Well, it'd be interesting. There would be people that would make changes to their portfolio or they would probably increase current... If they got rid of the... Not that I'm supposed that that's what they should do.

Pat: Scott, I was working in the yard yesterday and this is... Working on the sprinklers. And this is exactly what I thought about. I stole your thunder. Why do you get a step-up in basis when you die? Why don't we say that you can get a step-up in basis on anyone after the age of 80?

Scott: To get the tax.

Pat: To create tax. Right? It wouldn't create any tax because it would just pretend like you died and the step-up in basis anyone could sell it.

Scott: No. It would generate because if that happened let's just assume go down your... If suddenly tomorrow Congress passes says, "Step-up basis at death or one with first spouse reaches age 80." You know you've got clients that there are certain assets that you said, "Don't do anything about this. Wait till death." Now you'd say, "Hey, we're gonna have to pay the tax anytime, but let's look at..." I mean, this a silly example we're looking at. The step-up in basis occurs because you hit some magical number.

Pat: That's right.

Scott: You would say, "Let's sell that asset now and generate the tax."

Pat: But it wouldn't generate tax because it received a step-up in basis.

Scott: Fair enough.

Pat: But it would possibly generate a movement in the economy where, actually, an asset is unlocked.

Scott: There we go.

Pat: And so my thought was...

Scott: When you get elected in the Congress, then we can...

Pat: But my thought was why was it a death?

Scott: Why have it at all?

Pat: Well, that was the first question.

Scott: Does that matter? Why have a capital gain tax? And if you're gonna have it'll have it at least index with an inflation.

Pat: All right. Well, let's move on to the next calls.

Scott: I mean, you wanna talk about a tax that's just a degradation of assets, a capital gain where there's not even... Let's say you bought a commercial property and it went up a 3.5% a year over 20-year period, the same rate as inflation. You broke even. But you have to pay less capital gain. Anyway, let's talk...

Pat: We're not gonna rewrite tax law here on this part.

Scott: You don't think so? Not today anyway. Let's talk we're here with Teresa. Teresa you're with All Worth's "Money Matters."

Teresa: It concerns tax efficiency. I have about $1 million in a SEP IRA and about $2.5 million combined between two brokerage accounts. And my question is how should each account be invested to minimize my annual tax liability?

Pat: Oh. How old are you?

Teresa: I'm 80 years old.

Pat: And what are other assets are there in the household?

Teresa: We have a primary residence about $1.1 million, a vacation home about $500,000. I have the SEP IRA account about $1 million.

Pat: Okay. And then...

Teresa: A Roth IRA about $136,000. One brokerage which is a trust account, $1.1 million. And then a personal brokerage account $1.3 million.

Pat: And why do you have the... Any other assets?

Teresa: I have savings of about $250,000 and checking about $45,000.

Pat: And why do you have the brokerage in some of it in trust and some of it in individual account? Was that inherited money or what's the differentiation between the two?

Teresa: Yeah. The individual brokerage account was inherited from when my mother passed.

Pat: Okay. And what are you living on every year? How much income are you living on?

Teresa: I have Social Security of $3,644. And I have to take my R&D each year.

Pat: And any other income that you're living on?

Teresa: No.

Pat: You're not taking any money from the brokerage account and spending it?

Teresa: No.

Pat: And you're married?

Teresa: I'm a widow.

Scott: I'm sorry.

Pat: Okay.

Scott: And for taxes and insurance and stuff like that for the house, you're covering that with your Social Security?

Teresa: My Social Security and the RMD.

Pat: And when your spouse passed away...

Scott: How long ago was that?

Pat: ...how long ago was that?

Teresa: A little more than a year ago.

Scott: Sorry.

Pat: And how long were you married?

Teresa: Sixty-five years.

Pat: Okay. And why do you have the brokerage accounts split between a personal account and a trust? Are there different beneficiaries on each one of those?

Teresa: No.

Pat: Okay. All right. So, let's start from the beginning. Was the portfolio rebalanced? Who's managing this portfolio for you?

Teresa: I am.

Pat: Okay. So, what happened is when your husband passed away you should have rebalanced that portfolio completely because it received a full step-up in basis. And with that, what would have happened is you would have actually put anything that didn't distribute a dividend or interest in that brokerage and then put the bonds in the SEP IRA. And that was the perfect time. And there's still time. There's still time. But that would have been the ideal time. How many children do you have or how many beneficiaries are there to that trust?

Teresa: My son.

Pat: One son. Are there any charities named as a beneficiary of your estate?

Teresa: After my son, it's my daughter-in-law, and then my grandchildren, and then a local charity.

Pat: Okay. So, after them, so that's essentially a contingent beneficiary. So, how old is your son?

Teresa: He's in his 50s.

Pat: Have you gifted him any money?

Teresa: In the past, yes.

Pat: Have you done it...

Teresa: We gifted him money to help them with buying a home.

Scott: Great.

Pat: Okay. And when your husband passed away I'm assuming there wasn't a separate trust created at that time, a bypass trust?

Teresa: No. No bypass trust.

Scott: Okay. So, what was your question for us?

Teresa: It seems like I'm paying a lot of taxes. And my question is, would I be better invested in primarily bonds in the SEP IRA and then equities in the trust account?

Pat: Yes.

Scott: All things being equal, yes.

Pat: Yes. Which is kind of what I just said about non-dividend or interest-paying in the brokerage account. What is your portfolio consist of? How much stock and how much bond is a percentage between the SEP IRA and the brokerage accounts?

Teresa: Overall and there's four accounts. U.S. large-cap 30%, U.S. small-cap 8%, international 5%, fixed income 9%, cash and cash investments 48%.

Pat: Wow. Okay. So, I would say that your...

Scott: Can I ask another question? Were you the primary partner in your marriage that managed the assets?

Teresa: No.

Scott: Okay.

Teresa: It was a joint effort. And my husband was very aggressive in this investment and I was very conservative in mind.

Pat: So, this is essentially what happens is you want all the bond and cash in the IRA just as you said and as much in the brokerage account of non-dividend or interest-paying, so things that are gonna...for capital gain. You need to dig in... You need to push that individual brokerage account that you inherited money into that trust. There's no benefit in keeping it separate. Then you need to go through each one of the holdings and look at the cost basis based upon the date of death of your husband when you receive the step-up in basis. And then you wanna look to see what gains you should be harvesting and losses you should be harvesting. And then, quite frankly, if you were sitting in my office that that's just kind of, like, the basics. This is just where you start. But the bigger conversation would be I would ask you...

Scott: What's the purpose of these dollars?

Pat: Right. And should your son be involved in the discussion as to how it should be managed? I don't know what your relationship is with, like, your son. And is there any way we could send you more money that you would actually spend and enjoy? Right?

Teresa: Okay.

Pat: So, the first thing I would ask is why are you living on just your RMDs and Social Security? Are you not doing things that you would do if you had more money?

Teresa: Of course. Yes.

Scott: So, Teresa.

Teresa: Yes.

Scott: I mean, you were married to your husband you said...

Pat: Was it 55 years?

Teresa: Fifty-five years.

Pat: Fifty-five years.

Scott: Yeah, 55 years. Right? And it's been just over a year. My guess is the fog is somewhat lifting but not quite. You're trying to still put, like, what my future is now, right? But it's been a year now. I think now is the time to start really thinking, like, what would Teresa like at this stage. And you've got, you know, 5 million, 6 million bucks saved.

Pat: That's a lot of money. There's no way you can spend it if you try.

Scott: And Teresa, when you and your husband got married at the young age of... Actually, back then it wasn't young to get married. But you got married when you were 25.

Teresa: I was 22 and he was 23.

Pat: Okay.

Scott: Okay. All right. How much money did you guys have when you got married?

Teresa: My husband borrowed $200 from his mother for a honeymoon.

Pat: There we go. Right? So, you and your husband have done quite well, right? And you've saved... And it's easy for me to say we're gonna send you more money and you're gonna spend it because that's not part of your mindset.

Scott: That's why you have these dollars.

Pat: That's why you have these dollars, but you need the permission to say, "It's okay. It's all right if I take out another $3,000, $5,000 a month and spend it. Would I go on a vacation with my friends? Or there are places that I would not..." Whatever is that... You go to dinner. Do whatever, right? But one of the things is you ask the question about the tax efficiency. Most certainly, this is easy. I mean, this is not a big deal, right? But you've gotta go through and do the work. And you may or may not be capable of doing it because it's a little bit more advanced than just picking an investment.

Scott: I mean, at this stage frankly you would be well... You need to get a financial advisor at some point in time.

Pat: Look, when I'm 80 years old I plan on having a financial advisor. Right?

Scott: Of course. Yes. Yes.

Pat: I do it myself now and I'm 61. But by the time I think I'm probably 75, I will have a professional doing it for me because I want this money to...

Scott: Yeah. Well, you're not gonna be here forever.

Pat: That's right. And, you know, statistically speaking, I will... Not that my wife... She understands this thing perfectly well. The other thing is you should be looking at gifting some of these dollars to your son.

Scott: Yeah, I think so too.

Pat: And actually funding a grandchildren's 529 plan.

Scott: I mean, if your plan is to leave it at when you pass, I wouldn't wait.

Pat: I would not wait. I would not wait. So, the tax-efficient, why you called, your question was, is there a way to make this much more tax-efficient? Yes. Easy.

Scott: Any equity should be outside of your retirement accounts.

Pat: Every equity should be outside your retirement account. Right? And by the way, you said your husband was much more aggressive and you were much more conservative. Have you gotten more conservative since your husband passed away?

Teresa: Probably, yes.

Pat: Okay. I don't know whether that was the right call or not, but...

Scott: Well, it doesn't really matter.

Pat: It doesn't really matter.

Scott: No.

Pat: You can have this all in cash and you'll do fine. You can have it all in equities and you'll do fine.

Scott: That's right.

Pat: It's whatever you're most comfortable with.

Scott: At this stage, yes.

Pat: And I assume the will and the trust is up-to-date, your living trust is up-to-date?

Teresa: Oh, no. I decided early on after he passed that I wasn't gonna do anything until a year.

Scott: Yep, great.

Pat: That's the right call.

Scott: Yep, totally agree with you.

Pat: Yep. Wait till the fog clears. So, you need professional, not someone from the bank that's gonna sell you an annuity.

Scott: And a good financial advisor, independent financial advisor.

Pat: And have your son involved in the process. Does your son know what you're worth?

Teresa: Oh, yes.

Pat: Okay. Have your son...

Teresa: He's been very helpful as far as finances. Yes.

Pat: Perfect. Have your son involved in every step of the process, every step of the process, including meeting with the financial advisors whether remotely or in person. So, appreciate the call.

Scott: Appreciate the call, Theresa. Thank you. I'm glad you called. We're heading to Montana talking with Chuck. Chuck, you're with Allworth's "Money Matters." I'm sorry. Clint. Clint, you're with Allworth's "Money Matters."

Clint: Hello.

Pat: Hey, Clint.

Clint: I'm recently retired. I got $3 million in investable assets. And I've decided to hire a financial advisor. My question revolves around how to pay for the advice flat fee or the percentage basis. Flat fee is the obvious choice dollars-wise, but I just don't know. I'd like to get your thoughts on that.

Scott: You have an advisor now?

Cc: No, I'm in the process of hiring one.

Scott: Got it. Got it. So, I'll tell you how we operate. That gives you your...I think would answer your question. So, we have a couple of different ways what we work here, one, is we do a fee for a plan. So, somebody just wants a financial plan.

Pat: Just a one-off, here you go. Here's what your portfolio should look like. Go do it yourself.

Scott: Yeah. And here's all the... Yeah. But there's so much more to the planning, so that's just one little piece of the plan. And it's a flat fee and then...

Pat: But we're not moving the money around for them. We're telling them where it should go. And it's a flat fee financial plan.

Scott: Not managing it, not managing the tax efficiency, none of that stuff. We're just doing a plan. And that's a flat fee for that. But the vast majority of our clients hire us, we do the financial planning, and we manage the money on an ongoing basis and guide them and we charge assets under management fee.

Pat: But the third is that you can engage us to do a financial plan for you every year and then we will give you that financial plan and we don't manage the assets. The reality is most of those clients convert to an assets under management fee.

Scott: That's right. They almost all do.

Pat: Almost all of them do. And the reason they do it is they're kind of trying us on they're like, "Well, I'm not quite comfortable turning all my money over to you even though it's held at a third-party custodian and we manage it." So, it's them kind of testing the water.

Scott: You can hire and say, "I just would like to pay for financial plan." And then if you choose to hire them to manage your money, oftentimes, they'll waive that financial planning fee.

Pat: Yeah. So, you're going to end up with an assets under management fee regardless of how you start. That's reality. You want someone to actually...

Clint: Okay. I understand that. However...

Scott: And part of that, Pat, and to Pat's point... I'm sorry. Go ahead, Clint. You were stating? Clint?

Clint: I was gonna say the flat fee arrangement, I'm not talking about a flat fee for a financial plan. I'm talking about a flat annual fee in order to do everything that you're describing that you guys do, but you charge a percentage of the assets under management. The flat fee is considerably less at my level of the assets than A percentage would be...

Scott: And they'll manage the money?

Pat: Yeah. There's a couple models...

Clint: ...much less.

Pat: Correct, and that is an alternative...

Scott: If you're gonna get the same, if that advisor is gonna give you the same service, then I 100% would pay the flat fee. Assuming they're managing the money the same.

Pat: But there's only a couple models like that that exists so far nationally, but, yeah. Yeah. If you're comfortable with that, if you're gonna get... You decide if you're gonna get what you pay for. Right? But both of those are asset under management.

Clint: Right. Right. The trend seems to be...

Scott: Most experienced advisors that are good they charge a premium fee and they don't discount from that premium fee because they believe what they do is worth every penny.

Pat: Yeah. But there are a couple flat fee out there, I can't really speak to them, that it's relatively new into the industry, so I don't know what it looks like or the quality of the advice. But historically, it's been an asset under management.

Scott: And I actually think some of those models are good for young people that don't have much in the assets yet and just need a little financial planning guide.

Pat: That's true. And you want someone that's managing your $3 million to get paid a little bit more than you're gonna pay more than someone that's managing $30,000.

Scott: Clint, I wouldn't be shopping for advisors by...

Clint: Right. However...

Pat: Okay. Keep going, Clint.

Scott: I wouldn't be shopping from advisors based upon who's gonna be a little cheapest. If I was having a heart surgery I wouldn't be shopping for a heart surgeon based on who's gonna be the least expensive. I would want the best damn heart surgeon out... Excuse my language. Out there. And so I think you need to be thinking about those things along with it. If I were you in Montana, I would find the best advice you can find. That's what I would do. And however, they wanna charge you...

Clint: Right. Right. And I can do that for... Right. But at my level 2% of $3 million.

Pat: Oh, no one's charging you 3%.

Scott: Two percent?

Pat: Who said 2%? No, $3 million, you're down to probably three-quarters of a percent. Who said 2%?

Scott: Who wants to charge you 2%?

Clint: So, your company would charge three-quarters of...

Pat: Yeah. It'd be somewhere around three-quarters of...

Scott: Somewhere. It might be a little bit more than that, Pat. I don't know when's the last time you actually looked at the fees.

Pat: Yeah.

Clint: There are people out there...

Pat: Yeah, but it wouldn't be 2%. Holy smokes. I'd manage your money personally for 2%. Come on, call me. I'll give you my cell number.

Clint: Okay. Okay. My question...

Scott: You should be paying... Go ahead.

Clint: My question. Okay. Are you saying that the total fee is three-quarters of a percent or it's three-quarters of a percent once you get to that certain, it's an asset over that amount?

Scott: No. So, most firms have a tiered type service. And Pat, it might be slightly more. Maybe it's 0.9%.

Pat: Okay. It could be there.

Scott: It's less than 1%.

Pat: It's certainly less than 1% at $3 million. Right? So, they tier. So, on the first $250,000, it's a higher. Under the next $500,000, it's lower. It tiers down. But any advisor, if you came to them and said, "Manage this $3 million," they will actually be able to tell you what the overall fee is. When you're looking at a fee schedule, I think you're looking at the first tier and not the overall cost. You should be paying 1% or slightly less.

Clint: I understand that. My question is... Okay. Okay. So, 1% versus a flat fee. I get it. Okay. Thanks, though.

Scott: Okay. No worries.

Clint: I appreciate it.

Scott: No worries.

Pat: But by the way, if you're willing to pay 2% on $3 million, I'll give you my cell number.

Scott: Come on. Maybe you shouldn't go find the most expensive advisor. But it's clearly an advisor that their compensation is within the range of most other advisors.

Pat: That's right. That's right. Because it's a competitive business.

Scott: Otherwise, like, if someone's really good, why would they discount and be half the prices of the neighbor? It's not charity. You have $3 million. They're not providing charity at this point. Well, hey, everyone. We got kind of an interesting guest today. We don't always do these things because we mostly take calls. But Dave Ahern, he's got a podcast that's really designed for kind of newer investors, younger investors, kind of some of the more basics. And we thought it'd be good to have him on, not because maybe our listeners, maybe you might not need this, but we all have people in our lives, we have kids, that sort of thing that can benefit from some of the advice that they're doing on their podcast. So, we thought we'd have Dave join us for us. Dave, welcome to Allworth's "Money Matters."

Dave: Thank you very much. And pleasure to be here.

Scott: Yeah. What's the name of your podcast then?

Dave: It's called "Investing for Beginners."

Pat: That's pretty easy to remember.

Scott: How did you come up with that name? And you were a personal banker with one of the large firms for a period of time. And is this your full-time gig now?

Dave: That's exactly right, yeah. I worked for Wells Fargo for about five years as a banker and now this is what I do for a living.

Pat: And what's a personal... By the way, because I've heard this personal banker. I was at someone's party in there and I was sitting next to him, I'm like, "How do you know the host?" And they're like, "Well, I'm his personal banker." And I'm like, "I don't even..." What does a personal banker do?

Dave: Basically, at Wells Fargo... I can't speak for other banks, but at Wells Fargo, I was basically the one responsible for helping people open accounts, checking accounts, savings accounts, credit cards, managing their money, doing budgeting, you know, all those kinds of things. So, anything beyond the teller aspect, they would send us to the bankers. If you lost your debit card, you'd come see me. If you needed to open a checking account for your son, you came to see me.

Pat: Did you have quotas?

Dave: Yes.

Pat: Okay.

Dave: At Wells Fargo.

Scott: He's not with Wells Fargo anymore. Okay. So, quotas...

Dave: So, I started there right at the end of the whole crisis, you know, the account opening crap. And so I was there for about a year when that all went down. And yes, that year prior, yes, we had quotas. Every day we had certain... They called them solutions. So, we had to get seven solutions a day, and that included opening a debit card to credit cards to checking accounts, and so on.

Pat: A solution for the bank. Not a solution for the customer.

Scott: Not for the...

Pat: So, aside, this is... We're gonna get to your podcast. And we're probably gonna run long on this. So, if you're listening on terrestrial radio, you can subscribe to our podcast. So, if I may, let's spend a minute. I know this is... But I'm fascinated. Scott, may...

Scott: Yeah, yeah, please.

Pat: So, the idea behind this was, here's your quota. We don't care what happens. Maybe we should get legal in the room. But these are just your experiences, right? It was a solution and a solution always involved more product.

Dave: Yes.

Pat: Right? When in fact, the solution probably, some of the time, should have been less product, correct?

Dave: Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. And that's actually what got me in trouble with the bank was because I came from the restaurant business and I had been doing that for, like, 20 years. And so customer service was in my blood, right? And when I would have people sit down at my desk, I would look at them as a fiduciary. My job is to do what's best for them, not for the bank. And so sometimes that got me in trouble because I wouldn't encourage people to open a useless savings account, for example, or I wouldn't have them do online banking if they didn't have a computer. I was trying to work out for the customer and that didn't always go over well with my managers.

Pat: And the reason Wells Fargo and many of these banks wanted it is so that their metrics looked good, not necessarily that it would feed into the bottom line. It's that they could show to Wall Street or analysts what their metrics were, not what the profitability was. In fact, some of the solutions were probably less than profitable, but were cost centers to your organization, but they fed the metrics. And so I talked about it with this show earlier, the other show about MoviePass where the whole business was built around metrics to show Wall Street and nothing about profitability or client satisfaction. So, by the way, thank you for your explanation as a personal banker. Now I understand, /sales guy person.

Scott: So, how did you get involved with the... How did the podcast getting started?

Dave: So, the podcast started actually because of all the things we were just talking about. Because I wasn't following the roadmap that the bank wanted, I wanted to be an investment banker. I worked with an investment banker in a branch. I really liked him. He kind of helped start me down this path and that's what I wanted to do. And they wouldn't promote me because I didn't have enough sales. I wasn't selling enough solutions. And so I started a blog on the side and then through that I met my podcasting partner, Andrew, and that's how we ended up starting the podcast.

Scott: And how long have you been doing the podcast now?

Dave: What's that?

Scott: How long have you been doing the podcast?

Dave: We've been doing it for a little over seven years now.

Scott: Okay. Wow. And so my question for you then, so Dave, like, people listen to our program, most of them are nearing retirement. They're pretty far down the path as far as saving and investments and they tend to be a little more sophisticated than the average person. That's why they're listening to our program. What's the typical kind of person who listens to your podcast? And give us an example of some of the questions you get on a regular basis.

Pat: And then tell us your three favorite meme stocks.

Scott: I'm guessing that's not...

Dave: Should I start with the meme stocks? So, the age range that listens to our show is actually pretty wide, but the two most, I guess, popular age groups are 18 to 25 and 35 to 50. And so the millennials aren't really part of our listening group, which is kind of interesting because my cohost, Andrew, is a millennial. And I'm on the older end of the spectrum. So, we get two kind of levels. And the younger crowd is looking to... They wanna start investing. So, where do I start? What do I do? What kinds of things should I buy? How do I diversify? How do I find different companies to invest in? Should I invest in index funds or should I buy stocks? What do you think of Bitcoin? Questions like that.

And then the older, I guess, not generation, but the older grouping are more concerned with how do I build a portfolio? How do I generate income from the portfolio? How do I build up a portfolio that I can live on after I retire? What kinds of decisions should I make as I get closer to retirement? So, those are the kinds of questions that we get, kind of ranging between the two of them. And then I guess the three big meme stocks, of course, are, oh, god, you know, GameStop, AMC, and you could say Snapchat has always been kind of one of our personal whipping dogs. But those are kind of the three main ones. And I actually invested in GameStop prior to the whole meme stock.

Scott: Oh, really? Oh, you did?

Dave: At one time it was a value investor, you know, trap, if you will, because they paid a really high dividend. They had a huge yield. And this was way before the meme stock thing became a thing.

Scott: And did you get out when the meme stock started?

Dave: I got out before that.

Scott: Got it.

Dave: I had already lost my shirt before that.

Scott: Okay. Perfect. Perfect. And you guys cover things such as how much mortgage someone could afford and how to get out of debt. What's the difference between a 401(k) and a Roth?

Dave: We do cover some of that stuff. We don't do a lot of personal finance-related topics. Every once in a while, people would ask us. During the height of the meme stock thing, we were getting a ton of questions about, "Should I refinance my house and put my money in the stock market?"

Scott: Oh, my gosh.

Dave: We got a lot of questions about that. And every single one of them we told, "No, no, no, no. Please, God, no."

Scott: Well, it's interesting because, I mean, I think about younger investors today, whether it's Robinhood or, I mean, Fidelity is big in that space with a lot of younger investors. And it's kind of, like, I mean, predict, I'm gonna pick on Robinhood for a minute, because their whole app is...

Pat: They're gamified.

Scott: Yes, which may or may not help you with wise investment decisions.

Dave: Yes. Yes, for sure. And we have not been fans of that, to be honest with you. We have bashed on them a little bit. We don't talk about brokerages a whole lot, but that one, in particular, is one that we give special attention to just because of what you guys are saying, the gamifying of it and it makes buying stocks too much of a game and it's not a game.

Pat: And anything that they actually say democratization of...

Scott: Watch out.

Pat: Watch out. Anyway, any time a company says that it's a democratization of a particular industry, it always scares me a little bit because what they're basically saying is we're making this so easy to use and free that you should... But the reality is if you look where their income stream comes from in Robinhood it's...

Scott: Order flow.

Pat: It's order flow.

Scott: Yeah. They will need trades.

Pat: Yes.

Scott: Not buy and hold.

Pat: That's right. That's right. In fact, their model doesn't work for buy-and-hold investors.

Scott: No. They'll be shut down quickly.

Pat: Yes.

Dave: No, no. It definitely doesn't. And I always go back to that. There was a scene in Jurassic Park where one of the scientists is saying, "When we thought about whether we could create the dinosaurs, we never asked if we should." And when I think of a company like Robinhood, should making investing or trading stocks easier? Is that really a good idea? And that's where I go back to it.

Scott: That's my beef with them too. That's my beef with them too. I don't quite get it. But obviously, I mean, from the younger generation, that's their... My daughter has a Robinhood account.

Pat: Two of my children do.

Scott: So, what are your bigger concerns you have with dealing with beginning investors?

Dave: Probably I think the hardest thing is, number one, is feeling like there's this... Social media puts a lot of pressure, I think, on younger people to be rich fast. And investing is not a get-quick-rich scheme. And Andrew and I have really been promoting that for seven years, that the best way to get wealthy is to build it up over time and to invest patiently, consistently, over a long period of time, and that will add up and, you know, the compounding snowball will take effect. And social media tells you the exact opposite.

And so I think the younger generation struggle with the message they hear from us, they think, yeah, that's rational, that's logical, that makes a lot of sense. But then they see all their friends on social media driving, you know, Teslas and talking about Bitcoin and all the money that they make. And so I think they get conflicted about what is the right way to do it. And everybody's in a hurry to get to the end destination. And it just doesn't work that way. And if you look at the history of the wealthiest people in the world, they've all owned businesses, whether they built them themselves or whether they're in the stock market. And so I just think that people struggle, the younger generation struggle with, "How do I get started? How do I follow the advice of a Warren Buffett and a Charlie Munger and still be able to post on LinkedIn or, I mean, LinkedIn or on Instagram about my success?"

Scott: And do you find that a lot of times people come to you after they've made some mistakes?

Dave: Yes, they do. Yes, absolutely.

Scott: I mean, it's nothing like a personal experience for education.

Pat: Before I started in the business, it just reminds me of the book, "The Richest Man in Babylon." And what was the barber one? "The Millionaire Barber." Right? And I remember when I started in the business 34 years ago, the statistic that the number of millionaires that owned dry cleaners was just, like, off the chart. Right? That's when actually people wore suits and went to offices. But it was, as Thomas Stanley said, the millionaire next door, the one that actually did it slowly...

Scott: That's right.

Pat: ...over time, nothing, you know, no big hat, little cattle, none of that stuff. Right? Which is not the environment in which we live today. Showing excess wealth is rewarded.

Dave: Right.

Pat: And you've got a...

Dave: It is. And even if it's not actual real.

Pat: Correct. Yeah. You get rewarded to be ostentatious.

Scott: Yeah. Social media, I think...

Pat: It's not helpful.

Scott: No. It'll be interesting to see another decade from now.

Pat: What happens?

Scott: Yeah. My daughter is going to eighth grade. Actually today she's just finishing her last days of school. And we've waited till eighth grade to give her a phone. She is the last... She says she doesn't have any friends that don't have phones. She's the last one that she knows how. I go, "Okay." Right? Right? "I don't want you sitting there at 2 in the morning looking to see how many likes you got on your post."

Pat: But my kids were there. They said their friends would ask them, "Can't your parents afford to buy you a phone?"

Scott: There a girl at the church youth group who gave my daughter one of her phones, a used, she came up, I'm like, "That [crosstalk 00:58:44.224].

Pat: That wasn't the point.

Scott: That's right.

Pat: That wasn't the point. Well, it's interesting. It's interesting. So, last question for you. Obviously, you're getting some satisfaction. Share a couple of success stories or, like, what really gets you up in the morning to do this and what keeps you up late at night worrying about the people you're talking to? Right? Because there's... If you're invested in anything, you've got those two things going on, the things that get you up in the morning and things that keep you up at night.

Dave: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think the thing that Andrew and I get the most satisfaction from is the emails and the text messages or the social media messages we get from people that we've helped people that were struggling to start getting invested or didn't have a plan or a path and really wanted to do this, whether it was buying individual stocks or whether it was investing in index funds that they just didn't know where to start and they needed some encouragement. And I think when we've had those messages, we've had people come on the show and we've interviewed them. And that's been very, very enlightening and it's also been very gratifying for us.

So, that helps me get up in the morning and get excited about this, because I know that we're helping even if I help one person, that's one better person out there. So, it doesn't have to be... I'm not gonna help the whole country of the United States. But if I can help one person at a time, then I feel like I'm making an impact. And Andrew feels the same way. So, that's that's very encouraging.

I guess on the negative side of it is I think about all the people out there. When I worked at the bank, I saw this on a day-to-day basis and I still feel like there's so many more people to help is people coming to me going, "I'm building credit because I'm using my debit card," or, "What do you mean I don't have any money in my account? I still have checks." Just those kinds of questions I got every day. And that's why I do this. And I just think there's such a lack of financial education out there, especially in the, you know, Scott was talking about his, you know, eighth-grade daughter. I have a daughter that's going into seventh grade and they've taught her nothing about money. She's learning everything from her mom and I. And am I teaching her enough? I don't know. But I mean, I think those are the things that keep me up at night. That's what stresses me out is the lack of education and just how much pain and suffering is caused because people don't know what they're doing when they go out into the world.

Pat: All right. And so are you... Final question before we go. Why do you believe that there isn't an emphasis in the U.S. educational system on personal finance in the classroom pre-12th grade?

Dave: That's a great question. My outside opinion is that there's no incentive from the government or from the financial center to educate these people. And I think that there's just not...and there's probably also not a coherent discussion about what exactly... I think there's still a lot of debate on how exactly...

Scott: Is it a stock? Yeah, that's right. Because the finance class might be a stock game.

Pat: That's right.

Scott: Or might be how credit cards actually work and how they will own you if you're not careful.

Pat: Yes.

Dave: Right. And to go back to Wells Fargo for just a second, it's in Wells Fargo's best interests, unfortunately, or any bank for you to not understand how a credit card works and to rack up a big bill and then pay them a lot of interest for, you know, 20 years to buy that Xbox.

Scott: Yeah. Well, hey, I appreciate you being with us again. It's Dave Ahern of the "Investing for Beginners Podcast," which forward this on to people in your life that you think you're are gonna...

Pat: Young people that are starting out or people that are midlife that are starting out.

Scott: Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Appreciate it.

Dave: It was a lot of fun. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Scott: Well, I'm glad we had him on. Anyway, that is all the time we had in today's program. Enjoy the rest of your week, whatever it is. We'll see you next week. This has been Scott Hanson and Pat McClain, Allworth's "Money Matters."

Announcer: This program has been brought to you by Allworth Financial, a registered investment advisory firm. Any ideas presented during this program are not intended to provide specific financial advice. You should consult your own financial advisor, tax consultant, or estate planning attorney to conduct your own due diligence.