Charles: Hi, I'm Charles Parker, and this is "The Art of Retirement" podcast, a show about life and retirement and the challenges, opportunities, and unique stories related to it.

Denise: And so simply having a thought in your head and being able to explore that and execute on that is a gift that's priceless. And I enjoy that very much

Charles: Today, we're speaking with Denise who hasn't fully retired but has found a way to reimagine her life after losing her job.

Denise: My entire career has been spent in the IP space, as in intellectual property.

Charles: Okay.

Denise: So, I started many, many years ago as a trainee and sort of worked my way through a series of positions to supervisory level and a training manager level to most recently at director level positions for large law firms. And after a layoff in early 2017, I made some life changes and then made the transition to an offshore vendor who provides IP support services. So I spent a great deal of my career consuming vendor services and being on that side of the table. So it's really fun to kind of approach it from the other side.

Charles: Interesting. So, do you consider this semi-retirement or transition period toward retirement?

Denise: I do. I absolutely consider it a transition. I'm on a contract basis now. And I work about 125 hours a month compared with, you know, over 200.

Charles: Goodness. Okay.

Denise: So, in many ways, this is a completely welcome change because I have so many other interests that I'm also working on. I'm just acutely aware that we're in this environment where you need sort of multiple streams of income and multiple areas to sort of grow and enrich your professional endeavors. And that's sort of where I am.

Charles: So it didn't sound like you had a choice in this. So, when it happened, it was probably a big shock. Like, did you have a plan in place or was it something just came out of the blue and you weren't expecting it at all?

Denise: It came a hundred percent out of the blue. I had no plan whatsoever. I had started to see things changing in the BigLaw space and was feeling a bit vulnerable. And so I'd given some real peripheral thought, but when you're sort of head down 50, 60 hours a week working, there's not a lot of time for creativity and reflective thought. And so when it happened, I'd also been a caregiver to two parents with dementia at the time.

And I really just needed some time to regroup and say, "How do we ensure that this isn't a disaster and that this is a good bridge opportunity starting now through those years when I will actually be able to retire." And so, I looked at it as positively as I could. It was scary, but it was time to view myself as the project. And I think millennials are really good at that. They sort of invest in themselves and don't overly invest in the firm. You know, if you can see my air quotes.

Charles: Yes.

Denise: I think they have a spirit of my career is my responsibility. And I think I learned about that and really came to appreciate that through networking on LinkedIn, for example, and having interactions with people in my previous position or I said, "You know, they really are stretching and growing in areas that may not be relevant to the firm, but it's relevant to them at their own professional growth and long-term wellbeing." So, that was sort of how I approached it.

Charles: Fantastic. Now I know, I beg your pardon. I know how difficult dealing with dementia can be. My grandmother suffered from Alzheimer's and now I've actually just a few months ago, moved in with my mom to help her with...she was just diagnosed with mild dementia. So I understand how difficult that is, especially when you're trying to continue working. And I empathize, I sympathize and I'm in awe that you have so much positivity. I struggle sometimes with that so I understand.

Denise: Well, Charles, I promise, I didn't always, it takes some discipline and I certainly have my bad days. But you know this morning I was reading a headline that a recent Pew study says that half of all Americans, half in their 60s, are postponing retirement to care for elderly parents or adult children. And that was sort of staggering. And, you know, caring for elderly parents can mean a lot of things, but when the dementia component comes in, you're suffering grief and you're losing on a daily basis. It's very different than other more physically-based conditions.

And I really thought about focusing on a caregiving kind of advocacy. And I said I'm not sure if I want that to define me. Because I've since lost both my parents.

Charles: Right. So sorry.

Denise: But it is really, really hard for those of us in the middle who are still trying to make our way towards retirement, however close or far that may be. You know, making our living on a regular basis and caring for people who are in a really unique struggle and we wanna be there for them.

Charles: Yeah. It took me about a year to come to cope with it. And now that I'm actually living with her and feel that I can take care of her, it helps me feel better about the situation. So, I understand what you're going through.

Denise: Well, what it does, Charles, is I think it ensures that you won't have regret. And grief is one thing, but grief coupled with regret is just a whole different animal.

Charles: Totally.

Denise: And you'll know that you did the very best you could. You kinda left it all on the field. That's what I would say to myself when times got tough. It was like, I won't regret having done this and walking with them on this journey.

Charles: Let's maybe talk about work again. So, you're semi-retired, have you thought about full retirement and when that's coming, or have you not thought about that at all? Do you think you'll continue just working part-time through the natural age of retirement, I guess is like 65, 70 nowadays.

Denise: Well, it is, I don't know that I'm cut out to work until I'm 70. Initially, I thought I wouldn't work much past 62 just because the mental, physical, emotional demands of BigLaw and the kinds of hours that you've got to put in. I thought I don't know if I can make it. And so, when I was laid off in early 2017, I said, well, maybe this is a chance to look at this as a bridge period.

So, I think to answer your question, you know, initially, I thought 62 and now I'm thinking, I'm 55 now, I can go another 10 years if circumstances allow and if I'm engaged and fully present and having a positive experience because I certainly am in this contracting arrangement. I love the reduced hours. I have found them to be welcoming and inclusive. And I felt that I'm able to bring some real value to that organization and still pursue my own interests.

Because I think as I mentioned earlier, I think multiple revenue streams are important. And one of the creative outlets that I focused on is my Reimagine You Can blog and it's sort of focused on people like me in this bridge period. And how can you reimagine your life now that you've been through a layoff or you're no longer a caregiver or whatever the myriad of circumstances that bring us to these bridge periods in our lives? How can you reimagine what that might look like?

And so I appreciate having the time and the freedom to pursue that because it's been a lot of fun. I've learned new skills. I've sort of had an outlet for creative and personal expression that I've never had before. And I think I can bring some value to people. So at this moment I can see myself easily being engaged and going for another 10 years. But I've learned that, you know, we plan and God laughs. So we'll see what the future brings.

Charles: So I find it interesting. So you said you were working 60 hours a week in this high-pressure environment and now you're doing far less yet you feel more valued?

Denise: I absolutely do. Isn't that interesting?

Charles: Yeah. Yeah. Less hours, more gratification for what you're doing. That's great.

Denise: You know, I'm enjoying more time with my grandkids. That's a lot of fun. I live in the foothills here in Northern California and I love going up to Tahoe where they live. So we do that more frequently. And simply having...I write about this in my Reimagine You Can blog. It's doing that which is mine to do. If it's in my mind, I can do it. And I spent so many years, Charles, having to push away what was important to me because the demands of the firm were on me. Or push away what was important to me because my parents needed my assistance and my care and my attention. And so, simply having a thought in your head and being able to explore that and execute on that is a gift that's priceless. And I enjoy that very much. It's been a blessing.

Charles: Now with reduced hours, I assume that means reduced compensation. How are you dealing with that?

Denise: Well, it does certainly have an impact. We made a decision shortly after I was laid off in early '17. And, in fact, I should mention, I was laid off, I got that news, and within a period of days, my father died. And my mom had been gone about nine months. So, it was a pretty rapid succession of loss for me. And my husband and I looked at each other and said, "This could really be disastrous for our retirement plans if we don't do something proactively." And so we made a decision to sell the big house in Placer County and downsized to a paid-for-house in El Dorado County. And I think that making that move allowed me to earn less money and still have the peace of mind. In fact, more peace because I have no mortgage to contend with.

Charles: Right. Okay. Gosh. Yeah. That sounds like a lot of bad news in a really short period of time.

Denise: It was, but by the same token, it was kind of a rebirth.

Charles: Right. Okay.

Denise: And it was an opportunity to say we can be, or do, or have whatever we want. I mean, within reason and limitations, but it was an opportunity to say, "What are these next 7, 10, 12 years going to look like? And how can we make the best of them?" And if we can bridge them appropriately and not crack open the nest egg and not make any mistakes, we'll really be set and life will be sweet. And we can have a retirement with dignity and doing the kinds of things that we want to do when that real threshold presents itself.

Charles: You said rebirth and my mind immediately went to a phoenix from the ashes.

Denise: Yeah.Yeah. I think that's very appropriate because it was a long road of caregiving, you know, for six years between them. And it was a lot of decades in the BigLaw space and really sort of draining my soul. And so it was a dark time in many respects, but we are people of faith and we said, "This can look pretty amazing if we're careful and make some strategic moves." So, the reduced earnings were offset by trading in the mortgage for a smaller house.

Charles: Right. Okay. Yeah, it sounds like also having a good mindset of keeping positivity and really continuing to reach toward what you really want is helpful as well.

Denise: I think that's absolutely right. And I think that keeping and embracing an attitude of learning every day, and I like to say that a lot in my blog and on my social platforms, it's like learn something new today. We have never lived in an environment, Charles, where learning is so accessible. If you have a question that pops into your brain or some task that you want to accomplish and you don't know how you'll get there, we don't have encyclopedias at home anymore. You don't have to schlep yourself to the library. You know, these little things that we carry around in our hands all day are just a wealth of information. And there are resources and people out there who've done it and easy ways to learn something new. And that's been a great part of this journey is, you know, gee, how do I set up a WordPress site? You know, I had no idea how to do that before. I had my mind focused on patents and trademarks. And so, it's been quite a journey.

Charles: Besides the bigger house and the bigger paycheck, was there anything else you had to give up after the transition to the contract work?

Denise: I had to give up relying on somebody else to pay the IRS on my behalf. That was a really big deal.

Charles: Oh, yeah.

Denise: And you know, I used to think, Charles, that living on a budget meant I sat down, I paid the bills, and then there was some leftover that I could do whatever with. And I have adopted a habit of using a budgeting app, which really came about because I said to myself last January, "What if I blow it and I don't set that money aside for the IRS and for the state of California? And I'm not able to meet those obligations as those quarterly payments come due?" So I sort of had this epiphany. I started using this budgeting app and I get paid once a month and it's after the month in which I've performed the work. So, the check comes in, it goes in the bank, and I have a budget that I use to track my money. And I start moving the money and I even have a label tax account because I didn't wanna misstep. And I thought, you know, the last entity in the world that I want to get into trouble with would be the IRS. So, let's do this right.

And it's worked out really well. I've never come up short. It's been a great new habit that I think will serve me really well through retirement because I've heard people say consistently, you know, in retirement when you don't have any income and you're just drawing some income from those assets that you spent a lifetime of accumulating, you've gotta be very deliberate and purposeful and have a job for every one of those dollars and know that you're not gonna blow it.

So I believe I've gotten to be...I've gained a lot of confidence in sort of relying on myself to make it happen. And, you know, no one is ready for or appreciates at least me, I'll raise my hand and say, "I wasn't ready for, and didn't appreciate that on top of my regular federal and state taxes, I would have to pay an unemployment tax." Pardon me, a self-employment tax. Meaning there's nobody helping in my Social Security contributions.

Charles: Right. Exactly.

Denise: And so it's been a real adjustment and I have to count on me.

Charles: So, let's get back to your transition. So, it was a surprise when you first started contracting, was there anything you would've done differently? If you had prior knowledge or if you maybe knew what was coming up, what would you have done differently? Say, for somebody who doesn't think anything could surprise them out of the blue, like losing their job like you did suddenly, what would you tell them to do?

Denise: You know, I think I would tell them to be as disciplined as you can financially as early as you can in your life. Earlier, I alluded to, you know, I thought a budget was, you paid your bills and then the rest of the money was in a pile there and you could do whatever you wanted with it. But I really feel that if you can have an emergency fund for a rainy day, because something will come up that provides a lot of peace and we were never superstars with our money. We weren't A-plus students, but we were only C students. And if you could be an A student from the start, I think you would feel a greater sense of peace when these things come about.

Charles: Yeah. I know when I was in my 20s, early 30s I felt indestructible. And any money that came in was just any money above rent or expenses was just money to play with. And now I'm looking to put money away into 401(k)s, and stocks and options, and high-interest savings accounts. You gotta plan for the future early because nothing is guaranteed.

Denise: You do. You absolutely do, I agree with that. And you know, we never carried a lot of debt. So, again, I think we were C students. We never bought new cars. I really don't believe in them. I never did. We buy used cars that we then drive into the ground until they just stop. And I think we did a really good job for 25 years in the 401(k). And then I've had some uncertain years and had sort of pulled back a little bit in terms of contributions. But Lauren's got me back on track with the Roth now, which feels really good. That was a very satisfying feeling. Like, I'm gonna be okay at least for now, let's start with the Roth and start contributing to that on a monthly basis. So, you know, I think that just being intentional and purposeful with your choices earlier in life will serve you really well when these unexpected things come up.

Charles: Right. So in your semi-retirement, you mentioned that you have more time to spend with your grandkids, do you also travel? Do you have friends that you regularly hang out with or do you have planned things that you do every week that you can do more of now, things you enjoy more?

Denise: Last month I was able to take a trip to Kauai with some friends that I have known since I was five years old. And that was truly just a blast and it was a gift and I probably would not have spent that time. And if I had in my prior life in BigLaw, I would have definitely been on that laptop for a good six or eight hours a day, even on vacation.

Charles: Gosh. Oh, yeah.

Denise: So, that was a real treat that we were able to make that trip. My daughters and I have been talking about an East Coast trip for next fall. So, I'm still kind of finding my way and I think I'm still exercising a little more caution financially. Let's just keep sock it away until we see what the 2019 outlook is like. So there's a little bit of that uncertainty, but I'm not as afraid living with it now as I was before. I have more confidence.

Charles: So what do you enjoy most about being a contractor, being in semi-retirement?

Denise: There's two things and a former colleague that's now a dear friend said it really, really well. She said, "You are in a sweet spot, Denise, where you are doing what you know," meaning intellectual property. I've been in that space for decades. So, I am working in a comfort zone that gives me a great deal of confidence, but there are elements of it which are so different that it is causing me to stretch and grow. And that's a wonderful balance.

When there's a technical challenge, you know, I'm on my own to fix it. And so I have to be resourceful and creative. So I'm really enjoying that part of it. And I'm also really enjoying my Reimagine You Can blog and learning from other people. There are, again, so many resources and so many opportunities to learn out there. I listen to podcasts very frequently. They give me a lot of food for thought, a lot of opportunity to learn something new or some new perspective. So, I think those two elements have been the biggest and most positive change.

Charles: We talked about socking away money like getting your finances in order earlier in life. But what advice would you give somebody that had just lost their job suddenly?

Denise: My advice would be allow yourself some time to process it and acknowledge that you are normal to react in whatever way you're reacting. It can be scary. It can be maddening. It can be terrifying. You might feel it's the greatest gift that was ever delivered to you depending on whether you got a severance package or not. I don't know. So just honor your feelings and let them out and express them for a period of a couple of weeks or a couple of months, depending. But look at it as an opportunity to invest in yourself, get on LinkedIn, download Stitcher, and get some podcasts that are in your field. Think about whether you even wanna continue in your field.

Because I certainly said that to myself, I spent 10 months out of work. Now we were focused on a big life move so I probably didn't search as diligently as I might have otherwise, but I gave a lot of thought and submitted my resume for a lot of positions that were way outside the IP space. And I think when something like this comes on you suddenly it is a threshold and it can be an opportunity for you to say, "Okay, these skills that I have can be translated to a different environment. They will serve me really well in this endeavor or in this particular space." So, what you have always been, you don't necessarily need to be in your next position.

Charles: So what I'm hearing is, it's almost like when you've ended a long-term relationship. Your job sort of becomes who you are and when you lose that, give yourself time to grieve and then allow yourself to explore other options if you think you might enjoy them more.

Denise: Absolutely. Yes. Life is too short to hate your job.

Charles: Now, I was also curious, what advice would you give somebody that's caring for a parent going through dementia or having a lot of medical issues later in life while they're trying to continue their career? How would you help them or what advice would you give them to deal with that kind of pressure or that kind of grief?

Denise: Oh, my gosh. How much time do we have on this topic? I think there is an awful lot to be said for allowing yourself the grace to say, I am doing something noble here and it is hard to do. And I am walking on a journey with my parent and still trying to get the job done. So, I have a little peeve, Charles, about, "Well, you really have to take care of yourself," you know, like, what does that mean exactly?

And so, I've given a lot of thought to what that means. And I think that means if you have siblings and if they will help, call on them. If you need to hire help, make that happen. And I think keeping a certain order and cleanliness in your own life and affairs is important because when you let all of that go, what you think you're doing for the right reasons, it really just brings a turn to your position as a caregiver that isn't helpful.

There are a ton of resources out there around caregiver support. But I think and I believe it's worth investing some time and looking at it, thinking about whether this applies to me. But I think that asking for help, keeping a sense of order in your own life, and also telling yourself the chips are gonna fall where they may. If my employer doesn't support or appreciate that I have a completely separate full-time job that I didn't sign up for, then, you know, it will unfold exactly as it should. And I think I mentioned earlier, regret coupled with grief is a really toxic thing. And if, you know, at the end of the day, that while you're grieving, you don't regret having taken that journey with them, you will be doing yourself an incredible service.

Charles: I agree with all of that. I'm still working my way through it. And initially, it was the disbelief that the dementia was as bad as it was. It's like my mom's a totally different person and it was the disbelief in my mind that she couldn't understand what I was saying or couldn't remember what I had said five minutes later. And it was almost like, is she messing with me? But what I found was the best for me was relearning the virtue of patience, because it takes a lot of patience, especially for mental degradation.

But any other illness, it's, they're going through a lot, you're going through a lot, and being the person on the outside is probably worse than the person that's going through it. Well, a lighter topic and let's wrap this up. I'm wondering in the next 10, 15 years when you look at actual retirement, what are you looking forward to? Other than putting money away, it sounds like you've got that on track. What other things are you doing to transition into full retirement?

Denise: Well, I'm sort of dreaming about where I'd like to go, right? I'm sort of writing that bucket list, but I don't wanna wait until I cross the finish line. You hear all the time about people who, you know, have a retirement party and within a year they're gone. So, I think living life now is really important, and saying each year, can I do something to fulfill some desire for my heart or some wish that I've always hoped, some long-held wish? So, I mean, I'd like to expand upon that and be able to do more than one thing a year.

But I'm hoping to enter into retirement with a sense of peace and dignity that we have done well enough that we can enjoy this time and do some traveling and give more generously. I think that's important. I think getting involved from a time and money perspective is something that I'll really enjoy in retirement because there are some topics and areas that are near and dear to my heart that I would love to spend more of my time and treasure with, you know, and that I think is a great opportunity in retirement.

Charles: Great. Can you just give me a few examples of what you're really looking forward to? Those monetary contributions you were talking about?

Denise: Yeah, so we've touched on one of them today, which is caregiving. And I think that caregivers need a lot more support. And I think that Alzheimer's research on the collective scale of giving doesn't receive proportionately nearly as much as it should or that it needs. I have a huge place in my heart and I don't really know where this came from, but I guess this is how, you know, humans are constructed with different characteristics and desires, children who have aged out of the foster system and are sort of out in the world at the age of 18, "Well, good luck and goodbye" is a population that I think needs a lot of attention.

I think they need real resources and I think they need people to come alongside them and help them. I have three children that are young adults from early 20s to 31. And I know how complex this world is and how many changes this generation has seen and they need parenting so far beyond 18 it isn't even funny. So I think that children who've aged out of the foster system need our help to really reach their potential. And I have a heart for doing that.

Charles: Wow. Wow.

Denise: And animal welfare is huge and I won't get started on that, but I think spending time helping animal organizations would be really an incredible gift.

Charles: Great. Thank you so much, Denise, for talking to us today. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You could subscribe to our program at iTunes or on our website at allworthfinancial.com. If you have a retirement story you'd like to share, you can also write us at theartofretirement@allworthfinancial.com. I'm Charles Parker. And you've been listening to "The Art of Retirement" podcast from Allworth Financial.

Man: This podcast has been brought to you by Allworth Financial, a registered investment advisory firm with the securities and exchange commission.